Analysis: Churches are half-empty. So why does the Catholic Church still control so many of our primary schools?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/09/14/churches-are-half-empty-so-why-does-the-catholic-church-still-control-so-many-of-our-primary-schools/
Posted by MaelduinTamhlacht
30 Comments
Paywalled. Damn good point, though.
The church has no place in our education system. Long past time they were removed from it.
As with most questions in this country, the answer usually boils down to “Our government is very unambitious, and it’s easier to leave it to someone else to manage.”
They own a lot of land
Half empty is being generous.
77% of the population still identify as Catholic. So there’s that. If only the people who go to mass filled in Catholic at the next census it would send a very strong message to the political class.
Old people, basically.
The priests are still a powerful clique and their footsoldiers dominate parishes.
We need to educate children that they don’t need to follow this Italian nonsense
Paywalled.
Parents aren’t in a rush to change them and the ones that do want it changed aren’t organised nor are there enough of them.
Because we haven’t confiscated their plans to pay reparations to their victims. At this stage it’s our fault. They’ve proven time and time again they couldn’t give a fuck about their victims.
False equivalency. The fact that Churches are ill-attended has nothing to do with the fact that the Church is still too heavily involved in education. The two things are entirely separate topics. Just the IT trying to stir shit, again
Emptier than a Trump rally.
If anything, the emptier the churches, the tighter the grip on the places where people are still found. Schools for example. Church doesn’t want to lose its place, so it will go where it can.
And from parent’s side, I can tell you, even atheist families are sending kids to church run schools if they are close by. Why would parents have to drive every morning for half an hour (or more) to reach Educate Together school? People don’t have the time. So they send kids to the school that’s just around the corner even if it’s a catholic school.
Inertia. Most people kicking off about changing patronage of local schools are autopilot Catholics who wouldn’t bother except for their children being sucked through the process with communion and confirmation being embedded into the curriculum.
You can still have a party and a bouncy castle without the institutional child abuse, folks.
I teach third class and only 5 children in my class actually do religion which I feel like says it all.
Because people still get their kids baptised and have them make their communions and stuff…
Where are you finding churches even half full when it isn’t a funeral?
I can only speak from my past experience but it was the local community that funded the building of school most of it organised by the parish priests at the time, there was sharing of facilities (hall, car park, etc.) as they were right beside each other, the school was separated from the church legally, but then complaints over the car park and insurance problems meant the car park had to transferred to the school. Plans for making car park safer for the kids (drawn up by department of education) have ruined it and some argue that it is actually worse. Ever since then the local attitude is keep the department out of as much decision making as possible. Made worse by a visiting official remarks to the parents council that as it is not large school and should merge with larger schools. Ignoring the fact that a new housing estate was being built and the nearest schools are 20-30 mins drive away.
The locals are adamant about keeping the control of school local due to the mistrust of the department and if that means closer ties to the church then so be it. The church is represented by a parish priest who has a good reputation and was active in community.
There has always been anti-outsider vibe in the village which fuels the suspicion of the department of education, I ha e been victim to the feeling for years. But some department officials that were sent out over the years were useless.
Note: apologies for long story just wanted to give an explanation why one school is associated with the church even though a lot of people in the community would prefer the church stay out of it.
Post primary teacher here; ultimately, the issue just comes down to the same problem of land and funding.
The Irish government itself doesn’t buy up the land or make up for the funding the Church provides; as a result, the primary schools all end up being under control of the church. They sit on the Board cause they own either thebkand or org the school comes from.
Unless the government, and Ireland as a whole, is okay with spending millions (if not billions) to buy the land from the Church or build whole new schools this won’t change. (Or technically the government coukd just decide to today stop considering them schools at all but that would open up its own shitshow.)
Personally, and writing as a post primary Religion teacher, I would prefer most schools to be run by the ETBs. Any religious based school I’ve been to is a shit show behind the scenes at best. The worst school I’ve ever been to was run by a Church based organisation. The ETBs just generally run things far better in my experience.
I’m curious how this works. Does the government pay rent to the Church for all these schools?
Access to the children
Duh
Parties seeking not to alienate the current grey vote like it won’t be gone in ten years
Most parishes don’t have a priest anymore, or nuns. If they do, it is usually some half retired old fella, splitting his time across 3 or 4 parishes. There is no energy there to press influence on the community anymore.
It down to the board of management and Principles in my opinion. Most parents couldn’t be bothered to donate time and effort to join any of the parents groups. The ones who do, usually are the ones with an agenda. Eg. The ones who are active Catholics and want the schools to remain that way.
Also many people like the whole day out with first communion and conformation, but are not willing to do the religious instruction themselves, traditionally the school organised it, the parents just needed to sort out the outfits and rental of a bouncy castle. Its an inconvenience to change the status quo for some.
Because the church owns the land the schools are built on in alot of cases and sometimes the building as well. As the church is basically a corporation that pays no tax they are not just giving up that asset. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership-of-primary-schools/
Tbf the Catholic Church did organize a national school system in this country before any other part of the UK (at the time) as it’s their schools it would probably be very expensive to purchase them outright from the church by the state,.. can anyone explain it better to me though?
Doesn’t feel right having them still be such a large part of the education system.
My kids are in a Church of Ireland school in rural village its the closest school to us and also very inclusive for kids with disabilities the seperate kids with disabilities and have plenty of SNAs ans 2 SETs. I had less issues opting them out of religious education and religious events than my friend did opting hers out of the same in the nearest Catholic school.
I sent an email. Teacher emailed back went great no bother the SNA will stay with them during these times. My friend got a phone call and asked a million questions why. She kept repeating you can’t ask that and I don’t have to answer that. They tried to guilt her at some points too. She did in fact report it to the board of the school and made a complaint to the department of education.
Anyway my point is it feels like education is how the Church keep their numbers inflated. The Catholic Church like to count their members by baptism and not by practicing Catholics. I think this because my husband asked for his name to be removed as he diesnt consider himself Catholic now and deeply distrusts then. They said no once you’re baptised so they will always count him as a member. It’s also why they were so against and still are against rhe baptismal entrance ban. They only recently asked for it to be removed… for like the thousand time because their numbers are declining. As in people only baptised their kids to get them a place in primary school.
Because government already feels like it has to much responsibility as it is, it doesn’t want more.
It’s the fault of parents baptizing their kids. Its rife with the same people who then rail against the church’s influence. We need to be the change that we want to see.
Churchs can claim that they have majority Catholic students so they can set the ethos.
If you ask your atheist friends how many have had their kids baptized all you’ll hear is “I didn’t want them to be left out”. “the grandparents insisted and it was easier to keep the peace”,”sure you have to to get into school”.
Ireland is how it is because people don’t want to upset their mother
Because of every single person including some in here who isn’t religious and who hasn’t had the balls to opt their child out of religion and opt their child out of sacraments.
School teachers have better things to do than religious formation, that’s a job for home and church
I really don’t think the demand for secularisation is as high as people think it is. Parents look out for their own kids above all else at the end of the day and Catholic education is still seen by many as superior to educate together or whatever secular alternative
Just to note when parents were asked to convert from a Church funded school to a State funded one they sided overwhelming with the Church..